"Nationality Expertism" rears its head again in Boystown
If you have been reading us for a while, you know how we feel about “Nationality Experts”: these are amateur genealogists, ethnologists, anthropologists, racists, whatever you want to call them who live in Chicago and think “What’s your nationality?” is an acceptable question to ask a stranger in a bar.
Our nationality is American. None of us here are the children, grandchildren, or even great-grandchildren of immigrants. All of our grandparents were born in this country. All of our great-grandparents were born in this country. We have no emotional connection to any country other than the United States. We have relatives and friends in many different European countries, but when you ask where our families are “from”, the answer is “Ohio”, “Pennsylvania”, “Texas”, etc.
But, for some reason, in Chicago there’s an obsession with white and Hispanic men to know your “nationality” before they decide whether they want to ask you out or not. There are literally millions of things you can ask a stranger upon first meeting him. There are also about five things someone can say to one of us that immediately makes us shut down and not want have anything whatsoever to do with that person. This “nationality” garbage is the primo date-quasher in our books.
This nonsense happened again last night, with a guy one of us actually really liked. His name is Jim, a French teacher in Chicago Public Schools. He is smart, funny, had the dark hair and eyes one of us goes for, held an interesting conversation about both France and how well Ron Huberman was doing as Chief of the school system (Huberman is the first openly gay man to run the city’s schools, and is also Mayor Daley’s chosen successor for when Daley retires).
But, then he had to do the “What’s your nationality?” thing. We answered, “American”, like we always do. Then he did the thing that really vexes us and pushed it, saying, “No, where is your family from?”, and we did the “America. My family is from America” thing we do. The frustration bubbled up in us and we ended the conversation, told Jim it was nice meeting him, and wished him a happy birthday (as he told us it was next Tuesday). We started to walk away and he realized he did something wrong — but didn’t know exactly what — so he said, “It’s just that I’m really interesting in people’s nationalities…”
Honestly, cute as he was, there’s no way in Hell we are wasting any more of our lives talking to these racists.
What does it matter where relatives of yours lived 300 or 3,000 or even 30 years ago? If you were born in this country, you are an American. If you studied hard, worked your fingers to the bone, and passed your citizenship test, you are an American. If you have no loyalty to any other country and would happily lay down your life for the United States if this great nation ever needed you, then you are an American.
No public school French teacher has the right to define you as anything else if that’s how you define yourself.
In days past, we used to get into it with these clowns about how stupid it was to ask that nationality stuff. We’d go on about how they should ask questions about who a person is, what they like to do, what they think about the news, what books they read, etc. instead of asking where dead relatives of theirs are buried overseas. But, life is too, too short to spend any of it on these liberal fools.
One thing we did realize last night — and this realization is the only reason we bring this stuff up again here — is that it is STRICTLY a Chicago phenomenon. After the business with Jim happened, we all decamped to another part of Sidetracks and talked about it, mentally going through a list of all the guys who have asked one of us “The Nationality Question” over the five years we’ve lived in this city. Here’s what we found:
* Only white males and Hispanic men have asked “The Nationality Question”
* No black person has ever tried to define us this way, no Asian either
* Only white men who were raised in Chicago or its suburbs ask this
* For Hispanics, it’s mainly Mexicans who ask this; people from Puerto Rico, Argentina, Guatemala, etc. don’t ask it
* Guys who grew up poor or working class are more likely to ask this than guys who grew up with professional, well-off parents
* Liberals ask this sort of thing, but conservatives don’t; Democrats ask it, Republicans don’t
It’s a total class thing unique to Chicago. What it feels like is that these guys grew up in families where the “Italians” wouldn’t let their kids play with the “Irish” or the “Puerto Ricans” or whatever, so they were constantly asking kids what nationality they were to see if they could be friends on the playground. If you answer wrong, you can’t be my friend. As adults, these guys now keep the nationality question alive in the first three things they say to a stranger…now using it to determine if the person is dateable instead of just friendable.
As we’ve said before, we’ve never encountered this in any other city we’ve lived in. Just Chicago. And, it seems, just from guys who grew up in Chicago.
The one caveat is that we did get this from an obnoxious, random woman in Ft. Meyers, Florida once. She was the receptionist at an art gallery one of us worked a charity benefit at. Right in the middle of an unrelated conversation, she just blurted out, “What’s your nationality?” and didn’t settle for the American answer there either. Turns out she, too, was originally from the midwest but we don’t think it was Chicagoland.
She, so far, is the only female to have ever pulled this.
© 2009, HillBuzz. All rights reserved.
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My grandfather immigrated from Sweden, so I’m legitimately 25% Swedish. But I consider myself 100% American, and now so has my grandfather for the last 55+ years. His house has some Swedish memorabilia and such, but just as many (if not more) American flags.
I think it’s ironic how immigrants who are “fresh off the boat” happily and proudly declare themselves “Americans” but many whose families have been in the country for generations identify themselves as coming from somewhere else first.
Seems like we could use a little reverse immigration. Send all the people who consider themselves French, Russian, Spanish, etc. back to their home countries. I’ll gladly, GLADLY take the hard working new immigrants who are proud to be here in exchange.
When I lived in St. Louis, they always asked “what high school did you go to”? Seriously, even in grad school. I thought it was immature until I realized it was a screening question to determine your socioeconomic group, and that of your parents.
Ha! I grew up in St. Louis, and omg, you are so right. I moved away to go to college in 1971, and never returned to St. Louis except to visit my parents while they were still alive.
And even now, all these years later, if I meet someone from St. Louis, and I tell them that is where I’m from, they ALWAYS ask where I went to High School.
I never thought of it as a socioeconomic question so much as to figure out if you are Catholic or not, since St. Louis has so many Catholic schools!
Good post, hillbuzz.
“Only white men who were raised in Chicago or its suburbs ask this…Liberals ask this sort of thing, but conservatives don’t; Democrats ask it, Republicans don’t”
I think it’s actually a city thing. Something the elitists (sorry) do. I live in a rural area and people may be nosy, but they would never ask such an invasive question. When I go to the city, people thing they’re all cosmopolitan and open minded and never stop trying to point it out. You are correct about liberals and I am one, so I speak from experience. I have to laugh because the number of invasive questions liberals ask can be really uncomfortable. I was at a mtg in the city and a woman was going around with a very important survey asking,
“what’s your ethnic background?”
“are you a member of the LGBT community?”
“are you a gender minority?”
Oh my goodness, I couldn’t believe the number of personal questions being asked, all so she could proudly compile statistics to prove how “progressive” the meeting was.
I answer American when asked about race, too. Nobody will let that stand, they always have to push…
They DO always have to push. We’ve detailed on this site all the many variations of answers we’ve given to the question just to mind-game people. Where is your family from?
(A) Africa. If you go back far enough
(B) Romulus. We come in peace.
(C) The Future. We came to stop SkyNet and the robots. Do you see any robots? Mission accomplished, so buy me a beer.
The “what high school did you go to” referenced in another comment is something we haven’t thought of in YEARS, but it was used in Ohio to determine if you were worth talking to. We remember that. In Cleveland, if you answered “St. Ignatius”, “Magnificat”, “Walsh Jesuit”, etc. then you were considered well off enough to warrant further review. If you said, “Parma Senior High”, “West Tech”, or “Euclid High” (all public schools in poorer neighborhoods), forget it.
We think today if anyone would ask us what high school we went to we’d say, “Hogwarts School for Wizards and Witches”.
Why give a straight answer to these jerks?
Also, seriously, why waste time explaining why these questions are invasive, racist, and snobbish. Much better just to seize the opportunity to close the conversation, tell them it was nice to meet them, and then excuse yourself to get another beer and find a new place to stand in the room to watch the videos and resume having a good time in the bar.
But, seriously, we are really fascinated by the whole “Nationality Expert” thing.
Maybe it’s worth doing a serious research article on, as a phenomenon, and try to publish it somewhere in a journal.
Parma Senior High? I used to have family in Parma. I don’t know where they went to school, though.
When asked, I always say American. If pressed, I’ll say Texas-American. My Dad was an immigrant and I follow his lead; I was in the American armed forces, My family lives in America, I’ll be buried under an American Flag. I reckon that makes me an American on all accounts.
That makes me think of….foreigners comments on how Americans supposedly always ask what you do for a living -screening for socio-economic status again?
From every thing I know, other cultures consider it verboten to talk so openly about money matters and such related things.
Great Job! You guys are the best, seriously.
I’ve been asked that a lot in my life in various cities and I always answer “American”. I also hate being called African American as I’ve never even set foot in Africa.
I get asked my nationality constantly by all kinds of people. All. The. Time. You can’t place my heritage.
I always thought it was because I look like I could be from anywhere equatorial across North & South America, the Mediterranean the Middle East and most of the ‘Stans.
Never thought about it in terms of racism. I usually just say “New Jersey”.
Same here, vivianlouise … I look like i could be “from” any number of ethnic backgrounds and I’m told I don’t sound like I’m from the mid-west where I live and grew up – go figure – so I get asked a lot what my background is .. i’ve never thought about being insulted by the question.
Hillbuzz, this was an eye-opener for me and the same to those from St. Louis who commented on the high school question. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of asking that one myself, but it was to see if we might have mutual acquaintances … honestly. So thanks for making me more aware of how the question might be received.
One last thought re the dark haired dark eyed gentleman whose birthday is next Tuesday …. that makes him a Sagittarius and they (we) are notorious for putting our feet in our mouths … so maybe give him another chance ..?
M -
Sebastian really liked the guy, too. They had a little spark. But, honestly, we can’t see the two of them getting along if Jim is a “Nationality Expert”. How do we put this? It’s as if Jim had been super, sloppy drunk instead…Sebastian doesn’t like guys who can’t control how much they drink and make asses of themselves. Not really for the act itself, but just that if they let themselves get that drunk one night, what else do they do the other nights? Remember, Bast had a four year relationship with a secret prescription drug addict (David), and he ignored a lot with David when they were first dating that were clearly warning signs that could have saved him a lot of time, energy, emotions, and money.
At 34, Bast is more cautious…and less willing to overlook bad initial behavior when meeting someone. We’re sure he’ll be nice to Jim in the future the way Bast is nice to EVERYONE, to his detriment at time, but there’s zero chance of a date between Bast and Jim now.
“Nationality Expertism” is a symptom of something deeper about Jim that we can see, immediately, wouldn’t gel with Bast. Jim also asked what Bast does for a living, which is a question none of us like getting — so unoriginal and bougie, we think. That one’s very common in America, so Bast doesn’t hold that one against people, but it doesn’t make someone shine in his eyes either. It’s just a yawn. Unoriginal. And guys he tends to go for need to be creative and fun and have originality to them.
Jim might be a nice guy, and he might not be a racist at all, just someone with no creativity. But he’s totally not for Bast.
I’m new to Hillbuzz (but totally addicted!!) so did not know any of the history re Sebastian / David. I absolutely agree re overlooking red flags and bad behaviour though – never a good idea.
And like we said, Jim is a nice guy. We’ll all talk to him if we see him out. If we see him next Tuesday on his birthday, we’ll buy him a birthday shot, totally.
But, will he ever become a friend? Doubtful.
Hard to articulate, but that “Nationality Expertism” stuff, to us, is like seeing someone drink from the toilet. We are not judging you if you want to be a toilet drinker. Lap it up if you think that tastes good. But, you know what, we really don’t want to invite you to Buzzquarters so you can do that there, or go out with you to a movie or dinner so you can drink in the toilets wherever we go. You can have a wonderful, productive, toilet-drinking life perfectly fine without spending any time with us.
There are only so many hours in a day. We have a great many friends we never get to see because all of us work at least two jobs, write for this site, and are trying to put together our book on the 2008 campaign. So, we’re just really picky with people we befriend.
Toilet drinkers get our best regards and warmest wishes for success in all their endeavors.
The same is true for Nationality Experts.
We just choose to spend our time with people we actually like, who don’t drink from toilets or go up to strangers and interrogate them about their genetic makeup.
I found it quite odd when I first moved here from England in 1996. People would obviously notice I wasn’t from around these parts
and would eagerly tell me they were Irish American or whatever. As time has gone by, I have realized it is more of a historical connection thing based on the exchanges I have had – not saying that is your experience, just mine. America us such a young country by comparison with Europe and there seems to be a need to assert that history as a validation of sorts. Maybe – just my take. Since being here I have experienced the school question when I spent a couple of years in the South. No question it was a social label thing with the asker thinking they were asserting their social superiority over me – whatever! Went over my head until it was explained to me by my husband after I asked him what the obsession was with folks always asking. Must have really disappointed them that I didn’t feel suitably awed in their presence!
Trad -
With the school thing, you should say, “Oh, I hear they’ve really made a lot of improvements there over the last few years. Test scores are really up these days”. It’s a back-handed compliment sort of thing…saying it’s a good school now, and casting a shadow of spec. that it wasn’t so good back whenever they went.
I’m a straight female, but the only time I’ve ever been asked those questions are by people in the big cities. I know probably a half dozen or so people from Boston that can’t believe I don’t care about it. Seems to be all the rage with them. I just told them American… what was even funnier was since I’m from South of Mason-Dixon line, I told one of them Confederate-American just to see their eyes bug out. I could tell the “RAACCCIST” comment was just on the tip of their tongue. Good for a laugh.
LOL
I used to get asked this all the time when I lived in CA. Because I have dark hair and eyes, high cheekbones and looked “exotic” (by their standards, I guess!)no one could believe that I was truly an “ordinary” American. I never thought of it as racist though, but it did get old at times. Sometimes for fun, I would just mess with them and turn on a foreign accent (along with the fake name)and watch them slobber all over me about how “cool” my accent was! Men are such dorks!
People from St. Paul, MN start doing this every single March because they want to chance to tell you what percent Irish they are. Then they’re all amazed if you’re A) white, B) Catholic, and C) 0% Irish. These people have been in America for generations upon generations and they’re still obsessed with how Irish their ancestors were.
My great-grandfather came to America from Warsaw when he was thirteen and every single morning he’d get up, stand in the kitchen, and sing the national anthem. (The American one, I mean, not the Polish one.)
I was thinking about this, and I realized that people do ask what one’s nationality is quite often. Especially people of my parent’s generation (who are mostly all dead now!).
They often asked them about my sister and I because we are both adopted. I think my mom would tell people that my sister (the redhead) was all Irish and that I was Irish German, but I honestly do not know if that is true, nor do I care.
I do remember how many people back then were suspicious of adopted children. Stupid, stupid people. I think it was all due to that move, “The Bad Seed”.
There is still a stigma on the Left towards adoption. Why is that?
Gosh, I never realized that people were offended by this! Family genealogy is my hobby and I am always curious if I run across someone with a surname I haven’t seen before, so I ask, but I am polite in doing so and usually have a conversation with the person about their ancestors,and they never seem offended.
As a writer, you are overly sensitive on the subject. As a history major, I think his question would've led to an interesting topic. We really get to know people and what they are thinking on the matter regardless if we choose to go on a date. It's one of the best way to get to really know people out there without assumptions. It is always a positive challenge to re-educate people if there's opportunity to do so without arguments. Then again, It's just an opinion and it is not a fact. I did not find his comment offensive or vulgar, it's just a question. The truth is we judge. People will judge on appearances just look at commercials and you will see yourself forming opinions on others. It's human, we all do the same thing. You might even critique a beautiful gorgeous thin model who you don't even know based on her appearance. Sometimes it's positive or negative. Being an American is a privilege and we are truly a melting pot, therefore it doesn't surprise me if people ask this question alot. Especially, if
I don't look like the stereotype image of a blonde apple pie american like a Carrie Underwood. Nationality is made up and all languages are foreign including english. Land is just land, it's part of the universe. We are victims of our own crimes because we segregate ourselves. We create racism for ourselves instead learning from each other. Every question asked is an opportunity to enlighten people and a chance to exchange ideas… great learning skill. Debates can be constructive without grudges if you are intellectual and polite in manner. We are human, we don't have to agree. Move on.
Remember everyone is entitled to there opinion and we are not always right. God Bless America!