This is a zero-snark thread.
We’re posting a serious question and would like your insights here.
What would happen if GM and Chrysler were allowed to go bankrupt?
The way we see it, these two companies are poorly run, make products consumers don’t want, and employ poor money management.
Why should they be in business if none of the above are going to change, no matter how much good money’s dumped down the sewer after bad?
Is the Treasury just supposed to prop these two up forever?
It reminds us of 30 year olds who strike out living in Chicago, can’t pay their rent anymore, and need to move back home to Akron to leech off mom and dad.
Or, Uncle Sam, as the case may be.
What think you?
February 18, 2009 at 1:10 am
“The way we see it, these two companies are poorly run, make products consumers don’t want, and employ poor money management.”
Exactly. So why should the government prop them up? They should file bankruptcy and be forced to reorganize their business model (i.e. dump unprofitable union contracts, streamline management, improve product line, etc.), just like the airlines had to do.
Even if they can’t come back, there *are* other car manufacturers that will fill the void. And, those manufacturers will absorb the employees laid off by GM & Chrysler due to the added demand for their products.
I don’t exaggerate when I say that it smacks of Socialism for the government to use taxpayer dollars to reward companies that employ such shoddy management techniques, and in turn, create shoddy products.
This new mindset of the Nanny Federal government bailing out anyone who has their hand out is very disturbing, and sends our economy down a very slippery slope.
February 18, 2009 at 1:21 am
HB – I completely agree with you and jana. I think the mindset is that if the government can prop up these companies, it could avoid having to pay unemployment. The more money that is poured into these companies, the more entitled our bloated government will feel in giving these automakers marching orders to make even more products that the consumers will not buy. But as jana said, other car companies could adsorb some of these unemployed workers, and they would need to return to the job without the fat union contracts. Perhaps then things could balance out. I’m so very tired of seeing this goverment bleed red for more money to bridge these automakers. There is no end in sight for the current recession. As a consumer, I’ve stopped buying their products a long time ago.
March 30, 2009 at 10:39 pm
But it’s alright for the gov and myself to help people who made stupid mortgage decisions? Buy AMERICAN! Love it or leave it!
February 18, 2009 at 1:39 am
What we think would happen is new auto company’s would emerge. No matter how many times Maddow says she can’t help but think something disatrous would have happened if we didn’t give them the first bail out … she and the rest of the Adam’s Family at MSNBC have really got to stop thier “social drinking.” Wacky lib Jeanine Garafalo said (when she used to make sense), Is it worse to be Adolf Hitler … or Eva Braun? To be Hitler is one thing but to be Evan Braun, that’s another story. One is worse than the other on that station, all equally corrupt liars who believe thier own lies.
XM Sirius are preparing to file for bankruptcy also.
Would there never be another radio station to emerge if these people fall on their faces? Should taxpayers have to pay Howard Stern’s 550 million dollar contract?
This is a free country. You are free to start a business, and you are free to fail.
Would there never be any other auto makers to emerge if we let them go bankrupt?
February 18, 2009 at 1:39 am
I agree as well. If they cannot run their business properly why should We the People continue bailing the out. Ya know, in the real world if you run your company into the ground, you lose your own job as well as everyone else’s … and there’s certainly no $5 million dollar bonus.
Okay … the real world outside sports figures.
February 18, 2009 at 2:29 am
Lesbian Mafia says: “You are free to start a business, and you are free to fail.”
Not in the Golden Age of Obama. If you want to start a business, you must pay endless fees and taxes and conform to whatever regulations the Nanny state has used to cripple your industry.
When it comes time to fail, (as you undoubtedly will, hindered as you are by the restrictions placed upon your business), Nanny will take the money from someone who was successful and give it to you, even though you have performed poorly. It’s the new American way.
Did you see that Obama signed his Trillion dollar bill today, and will speak tomorrow about his plan to bail out homeowners facing foreclosure? Rumor has it his plan will help “responsible” people stay in their homes.
I would argue that responsible people don’t need help, we’ve been paying the mortgage WE SIGNED UP FOR the entire time.
I think I’m going to just stop making my house payments. Paying bills is for chumps.
February 18, 2009 at 4:15 am
Does GM or Chrysler have a clear path to become more competitive. They have made some big cuts, streamlined their process to some degree, and they are asking for 35 billion to keep them alive through the recession. From what I’ve seen to date, however, no they have not made the case for the future.
But consider this, the Japanese car manufacturers are suffering deeply as well. Toyota is forecasting for 2009 their first loss in 70 years. Nissan is in much worse shape. The yen has risen 20% against the dollar in the past year, making their exports to the US that much more expensive. The Japanese general economy is actually shrinking at two times the pace of the US economy. So that’s shockingly bad. European auto manufacturers are also bleeding. The Korean won has fallen 30% in the past year, which in principle means their export prices will be that much more competitive. But they are also not seeing any demand, and their economy is shrinking too.
Net net, if this was any other time than now, when people are actually talking about a depression, it would not make sense to bury more money into GM and Chrysler. But given the severity of the global economic collapse, anything is possible when the economy turns around at some indefinite point in the future. That is why Detroit needs to have a PLAN for becoming more competitive in the future, not just one for surviving this year.
It’s really a decision for the American people. Because, if an additional 35 billion is spent on GM and Chrysler, the effect would be similar to reducing the tax cut in the stimulus by 35 billion, or roughly 10% of what is planned. Put another way, if you knew you were getting a $2000 stimulus tax break in 2009, would you be willing to give up $200 to GM and Chrysler. If you can answer that, you’ve made your decision for Detroit, for this round.
February 18, 2009 at 5:01 am
They should have let them go bankrupt from the start to restructure. The airlines, which is much bigger than them did it. And if they were unable to go into capter 11 and restructure, they should have been allowed to fail. Nothing has changed, all Congress did was shovel money for union kickbacks. Detroit has been a problem for at least the last 10 years.
No amount of moeny can save them, it’s inevitable. Let them fail and restructure or disappear for good
February 18, 2009 at 6:27 am
What would happen is they would start thinking about being responsible for themselves. One could compare this to a parent buying and taking care of everything for their grown child…they never mature into a responsible adult.
February 18, 2009 at 6:44 am
Seriously though, the government seems intent on bailing out everyone , big or small. Large company or individual. This problem is the prevailing one we are facing.
February 18, 2009 at 8:01 am
I have an issue with the government giving corporations money and not stipulating anything in return.
But, can we really expect anything different w/ who we have working for us in Wash.? After all, a CoDel went on a “mission” at taxpayers’ expense and made sure they were in Paris on Valentine’s Day.
February 18, 2009 at 8:36 am
The way we see it, these two companies are poorly run, make products consumers don’t want, and employ poor money management.
Hang on a second guys… I. LOVE. MY. BUICK. And my three Chrysler vehicles before that. And the Fords and Chevy’s we owned back in the early days of our marriage. The Big Three got to be the Big Three because they did make products that consumers wanted and bought.
So I’ll give you two out of three. The reason they are in trouble can be summed up in one word: Unions. And that’s the reason that they won’t be allowed to file for bankruptcy – the Dem’s are so indebted to the unions they can’t allow Detroit to really turn things around.
Bend over and grab ankles everyone.
February 18, 2009 at 8:43 am
Instead of bailing out the car companies, we need to abolish CAFE standards. We know that Global Warming is a crock ~everyone except the MSM and the loony left~ That way the car companies won’t have to spend so much to retool their plants to make cars that nobody wants. Let the market work. Get government out!
February 18, 2009 at 9:06 am
Between the government rules & regulations, the economy and the unions, it’s no wonder the car companies are in bad shape. The government regulations on the car industry are bad enough as it is, and if we give them money without more regulations, we have to trust them (which is hard to do). On the other hand, we give them money with more regulations and stipulations, we are trusting the government even MORE, as if Congress knows better how to run the car business better than the people in the car business. Ha! This is a bad choice vs. another bad choice. So what do we do? We let the car companies fail. We cannot allow our government to keep meddling more and more into private business/industry! WE CANNOT!!!!! There should not have been the first bailout, let alone any more. It would be so nice if our Congress would listen to us, but all we can do is keep bombarding them with calls, emails, letters, etc. until we vote them out of office. It is obvious Congress and our President are spending fools with socialist plans. God help us!
February 18, 2009 at 9:10 am
I. Love. My. Hyundai. It’s better than any American car I’ve ever had. Learn from the South Koreans, dump the unions (a good idea gone bad because of corruption), and file bankruptcy. If I have to take my financial lumps, so do you, GM and Chrysler. In this case, throwing money at the problem won’t do a damn thing to solve it.
No bailouts for automakers, banks, or any other businesses!
February 18, 2009 at 9:26 am
If an addict finds a fix right before they hit bottom, will they ever get clean? Probably not. They’ll continue to make horrible decisions, hang out with people that corrupt them further and never see what they are capable of accomplishing.
From corporate execs to the assembly line, entitlement breeds mediocrity. Execs still get bonuses and union workers still get benefits and pensions. We don’t know what we had until it’s gone, but sometimes it needs to be “real gone” for us to make it better the next time.
February 18, 2009 at 9:28 am
The Right seems to use the term socialism when what they really mean is fascism. The Left seems to use the term socialism when what they really mean is a country like Canada or Sweden. Those are not really socialist countries, they’re more like democracies with some socialist/like programs that serve the people.
The problem is when the government controls the method and means of production as they are attempting to do by bailing out the auto companies and nationalizing the banks, the government controls the wealth. They don’t trickle it down to the people, they toss out a crumb here and there and everybody is poor. When people begin to rebel the Gov becomes fascist in order to control the population.
The Left that is chanting about the joys of socialism really need to study history and governments and to define what they mean when they say socialism, because this is not a path we want to go down.
February 18, 2009 at 9:30 am
Last point……
Without too much regulation or control, we need to find a way to see that these companies don’t get so big that we need them to employ workers more than we need them to be efficient and productive.
Follow up to addict analogy…. What situation do you put yourself in when the primary earner in your household is a full-blown addict. Have you contributed to placing yourself in this predicament?
February 18, 2009 at 9:32 am
sue @ 2/18, 5:01am- thread winnah!
Well said.
February 18, 2009 at 9:32 am
By all means nationalize the automakers. In due course we’ll all be driving the American-made equivalent of the Yugo. No more bailouts, no more UAW “leadership”!
February 18, 2009 at 9:41 am
I think you guys are missing the point of the car bailout: Unions.
The Unions supported Obama, and this is payback. He can’t let the car companies tank because bankruptcy would allow those companies to get rid of the Unions.
It’s as simple as that.
They SHOULD be allowed to go bankrupt, but as long as the Unions have their puppet hands up Obama’s butt, it will never happen.
February 18, 2009 at 9:42 am
Some economists are predicting that when the collapse first started, if the government had done NOTHING instead of starting up the endless Porkzilla, the Dow would actually be recovering slowly right about now instead of freefalling.
I tend to agree.
February 18, 2009 at 9:54 am
Obviously the DOW doesn’t have any hope in our “change”. Are our congressmen noticing?
February 18, 2009 at 10:04 am
It’s really quite simple. The UAW would cease to exist. No way that their contract with wages 40% higher than similar non-union jobs along with perks such as: jobs bank, 100% retirement health benefits and 90% pension could survive any form of bankruptcy.
Keep in mind the UAW is not just the big three automakers but most of their suppliers as well. This is not a bailout of automakers it is a bailout of one of the largest unions in the USA.
February 18, 2009 at 10:59 am
Vernnan:
Absolutely right. That’s why Obama will keep bailing the auto companies out forever.
The Unions propped him up and got him elected.
He OWES them Big time.
February 18, 2009 at 11:32 am
Tammy, no one is missing the point, all of America sees it. We all know it’s about political kickbacks. The union needs to go
We are proposing common sense measures that should/would be done to resolve the situation. I don’t think any of us actually think any of them will ever be put in action. The Fraud never will turn his back on his political cronies like the union and ACORN
February 18, 2009 at 11:34 am
Yes, but the whole union issue is also more complicated. It is not necessarily the workers that are bankrupting the auto makers. At the top the auto execs have private jets and hefty salaries and they’re mismanaging their profits, and no longer producing something people want to buy.
Unions also don’t always benefit the workers. There is a perception that the union is made up a bunch of greedy auto workers raking in huge salaries, but if you look at Detroit, it’s not exactly a mecca of wealthy employees.
February 18, 2009 at 11:47 am
So.. check out this link to a very interesting commentary from Bill O’Reilly and Larry Elder on the Obama/Geither Spending Spree aka- Stimulus
http://www.foxnews.com/video-search/m/21888347/stimulus_showdown.htm
(forward to 3:30).. This was a very good example of WHY this SHOULD NOT be passed. FDR’s Sec of Treasury, Henry Morgenthau, Jr., later wrote in his memoir about the huge ammount of spending during the New Deal era. Apparently he admitted AFTER the fact that you CANNOT spend your way out of a crisis… Not just a talking head, but the person who ACTUALLY carried out the policies. Its almost sad that we dont learn from our OWN mistakes… Now more than ever, I wish Hillary was in charge of all of this!
February 18, 2009 at 11:55 am
Reoganization bankruptcy would allow both GM and Chrysler to dump the crushing burden of the union contracts and the healthcare to the retirees. This would allow the companies to be in a better position to compete with the Japanese automakers. The next step would be to revoke the CAFE standards and allow automaker to make cars Americans and the rest of the world want to drive. Not rolling tuna cans with gas tanks and seats.
Just my two cents’ worth.
February 18, 2009 at 12:59 pm
If GM and Chrysler went into bankruptcy, they would have a second chance through re-orginization – the unions would get stomped but I suspect the rank-and-file would be very happy to bring in $20/hr in a banckrupcy vs. $0/hr in the bread lines. The screaming of Union mgmt would fall on deaf ears (as it seems to be doing right now).
If GM and Chrysler couldn’t make it through under bacnkruptcy, their assets would be sold off and another auto maker (Japanese, German, a brand new company) would fill the vaccuum as soon as demand came back with a new macro-economic resurgence … in other words, like all business, failure of the weak (GM and Chrysler haven’t run decent businesses in decades) would be painful for all involved but would make way for newer and stronger replacements … an life would go on – in better ways for everyone.
Keeping these failures alive through gummint intervention or bailouts should be called exactly what it is – WELFARE for Unions, payback to Union leadership for delivering Michigan to the 0bamessiah, and taxpayer-funded Golden Parachutes (ala the Banking Thieves) for coporate executives.
Sooner or later the US auto industry will have to pay the piper for it’s incompetence. The sooner they do, the cheaper it is for the rest of us taxpayers …
Pull the plug already … and let these losers die with whatever dignity they have left …
February 18, 2009 at 1:26 pm
If the people on top at GM had brains, they would say “NO” to government money (government loans), file for Chapter 11 protection, re-organize, and purge the UAW. Also, they must drop unpopular products, focus on what sells, and retool for the future. Bankruptcy is not a bad word – it allows for re-organization. GM can emerge profitable. (Unfortunately – a profitable non-union business model no longer works in Pelosi/Reid/Obama America)
(notice that leftist pundits are now vilifying Toyota and Honda – car companies that make cars people want to buy, provide good jobs at fair market wages, all without the toxic UAW)
The elephant in the room is the UAW. The democrat party owes the union lobby. So the government will prop up GM only as long as the UAW retains its grip on GM. And the UAW’s non-competitive, business killing work rules have killed GM’s profitability.
No snark intended. I am totally serious.
February 18, 2009 at 1:47 pm
great question. i have also been in the – they should declare chap 11 and restructure under bankruptcy camp all along. It seemed logical to me – a business that fails has an opportunity to restructure and redeem itself- isnt that what chap 11 is all about? And, for me also, this is a deeper philosophical point – how far do we want to stray from the alleged capitalistic system we theoretically believe in.
Will there be more unemployed and economic distress if these businesses die? YES. but use 30billion for job retraining for the affected groups… or other ways the government can relieve the impact directly on the people with extended unemployment benefits etc…. its like trying to hold up a building that is collapsing… it only works for a little while since you cannot change the inevitable.
So, what will happen? who knows – but…. the money we are spending tossing at the big three could be used in ways to minimize the impact once it becomes clear.
February 18, 2009 at 2:06 pm
BlueStateBilly …. yep, had government not interfered, we’d be back on the road to recovery by now, or at least flirting with it.
OhioDee …. are our fellow VOTERS noticing? People screamed for change, they got it. I hope they are lavishing. There is no one to blame but themselves, this is what they voted for. We get to blame three Republican Senators who will not be reelected.
Marcus … excellent link, thanks. We cannot spend our way out of an economic crisis, I am completely baffled as to why our “smart” new President doesn’t get that.
tx conservative … yep, which is why it’ll never go, Obama is too beholden to the unions. Funny, isn’t he the candidate that said lobbyists would have no place in his administration or influence? Oh yeah, that was CANDIDATE Obama, not President Obama.
February 18, 2009 at 2:40 pm
#25Joan:
Sorry, but I disagree. The people on this site get it, for the most part, but the majority of the American people do NOT. They get all of their news from the Obama-loving MSM. Most Americans don’t have a CLUE about economics.
The solution should be bankruptcy for the car companies. I live in Minneapolis, and Northwest Airlines filed several years ago and the planes didn’t stop flying. Unions lost some of their power and that was a GOOD thing for the airline. I’m a member of two unions, and they are both worthless. They don’t care about us, they just care about keeping themselves in power. The last strike we had DESTROYED most of our work because the people hiring went non-union. They didn’t want to deal with the strong-arm tactics of the Unions anymore.
GM: File for bankruptcy and return the money to the government. Start over and do it right this time.
February 18, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Billy Pickle …. yes, welfare for unions is EXACTLY what it is. And it’s time for it to stop.
neilario … I agree, the money could be put to much better use in retraining laid off employees than throwing it at the unions and a failing business.
Tammy … you’re right, far too many Americans get their “news” from the MSM which does not in any way reveal the conspiracy of UAW and the detriment the unions now bring to workers. As someone else said $20/hour is better than $0/hour.
Now if we could only do something about the teachers’ union, beginning with accountability!
February 18, 2009 at 2:51 pm
They should use the money and start a new car company-why prop up this mess. Now they are going to drop the Saturn line-the one success they had.
This country needs something new.
February 18, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Yup to all i agree. And for me what is the fundamental part that bothers me is the continuation of the new american cult of lack of responsibility. If there are no consequences for actions/ decisions then there is no risk/ success/ failure….
slightly off topic but i read a study today where college students felt they deserved an A just for trying and a B for showing up at class. I was floored…
so just because Gm etc are trying we should reward them… results don’t matter. thats the culture we reinforce with these bailouts.
The car companies need to respond better and more quickly to market forces. period. or suffer consequences from the market.
lordy…. i didnt realize that was such an outlandish philosophy … yet the msm does not ask it…
wacky times we live in :}
February 18, 2009 at 3:17 pm
I think the govt. should step out of the way and let them go under, do you know how many factories have gone under in the past ten years no one helped them, I worked at a plant in Pa. for 22 years and they closed with no warning no one bailed us out or gave a rat’s a– what became of us. in the town I live in 6 other paper mills went down, we were memebers of USW, there is a place near my home that is going to close at the end of March, they are Steelworkers also, USW and they were owned by Alcoa, then bought last year by Ranck Inc., they were a bunch of investor’s now they are closing the plant, the union tried to get severance, my best friend has worked there for 36 years, the new company told the union they owe the people nothing, so no they get no severance pay, nothing, nothing, nothing, this is what this country has become work people into the ground until they are to old to find good jobs and this is all they have known how to do most of their lives from high school till the present, where is the government, where is Obama with all his hope and change, most of these people voted for him, because of the urging of the USW who gave big time to Obama’s campaign, I told them they were being fools, now they will see no help is coming for them, now or ever. I do feel sorry for them I know how it feels to lose your job after giving most of your life to your job, I found a job in the health industry and so far I am safe, I hope I stay safe, especially with the country in this sad shape, and a big fake at the wheel of the ship, we are surely going to sink. God help all of us to get through all of this turmoil.
February 18, 2009 at 3:24 pm
The auto industries will be faced with bankruptcy anyway as I see it- the government is just putting it off.
With this economy-who will go out and purchase a new auto-unless they absolutely need it? With that being said-auto sales will still slump- while we sit powerlessly and watch our government waste tax dollars.
That’s change we can count on.
February 18, 2009 at 3:38 pm
no bail out…none nada.zipp..
February 18, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Auntie lib you are exactly right, UNIONS! The dems are union backers and will continue to fund their constituents.
If the companies were allowed to file bankruptcy, restructure, and lose the unions, they would be competitive and probably hire back more peeps. The UAW is killing our auto industry.
Now they have to get congress outta the way as well.
2010 here we come!!!!
February 18, 2009 at 4:50 pm
I wish we could find out what Hillary really thinks about all this. I’m dying to know her opinion but we can’t get it.
Kudos to Gov’s Sanford, Jindal and Palin for stating that they won’t accept any bailout money with any down-the-road risks involved. The Zero backed them all into a corner because politically they CAN’T turn down billions when other states are lining up at the trough. At least they are being pragmatic about it.
Now, since she’s presumably pro-union (her hubby’s in the Steelworkers Union) I would love to get Palin’s take on this particular issue with the auto industry.
February 18, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Everyone here seems to know exactly what to do. How come our elected geniuses can’t figure it out?
The federal government can’t run anything correctly, including the federal government. Why on earth would *anyone* think they have any expertise whatsoever in managing any other enterprise of any sort?
February 18, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Everybody seems to be in agreement that the unions crashed the car companies. Now lets agree that the unions have had the very same effect on our schools. Our schools are bankrupt in every sense of the word. Time for the teachers to get slammed for collectively bargaining for a decent standard of living. Shame, Shame, Shame on teachers!!! Maybe we could bring in some foreign run schools, propped up by foreign governments, to compete with these lazy overpaid teachers. Now that would teach them! Afterall, it’s not like they walk an assembly line for a living.
February 18, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Okay, I am from Michigan and I will be perfectly honest with you that being from here it is very difficult to be objective… I am against all bailouts, pork, the anti stimulus…. all of it. I know this is very hypocritical to say, but I am for the auto loans.. 1) If the government would leave the car companies alone in regard to continuous regulations we would be good. 2) I do not,nor have I ever worked for the big three..
In Michigan the Bankruptcy would be devastating and not for the car companies.. They can restructure, but the suppliers, grocery stores, restaurants, bars, theaters, Doctor and Dental offices etc… cannot. Unfortunately almost everything here is connected. It would be terrible for the state, and there are no jobs here regardless. We would spend more money in unemployment benefits than the loans are for, and I am not even including the car companies… The union has its own issues, and I primarily are pretty much against them lately. (that is a whole other subject)
The impact on the country would be felt in many many states where employment is connected to Detroit// Plastic, chrome, tools, carpet, glass, mirrors, locks, latches,paint,seats,alarm devises, tires, jacks, the list goes on…most of these people are non union just trying to feed the family… Maybe we can touch on the union for another subject.
February 18, 2009 at 5:41 pm
I’m a longtime stockholder with GM and I fully support bankruptcy. A pox on the unions – they are the reason our manufacturing plants locate overseas. So many people have written off American cars that I see very little way they can recover, even through bankruptcy. Innovations come from foreign auto-makers, very little from this side.
February 18, 2009 at 5:44 pm
One more comment…. The companies are really not poorly run, that is a huge misconception, and entertained by congress and the media. If they were free to run business as they choose it would be great. They have no choice but to negotiate with the union, and to follow the government regulations.. Wagner is really a wonderful person, smart as hell.The car companies help to support some of the following organizations: Cancer hospitals, shrine circus, homeless shelters, food banks, refrigerated trucks (Katrina comes to mind)schools,non profit organizations like the Boys and Girls Clubs… etc…
February 18, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Sharon:
Chapter 11 bankruptcy allows the company to continue operations during the restructuring process. The planes never stopped flying when the airlines were in bankruptcy.
And as for the unions, the *individual* members may just be trying to feed their family, but the union bigwigs are looking for graft.
The car companies *DO* have a choice. That choice is to file bankruptcy, get out of the crippling union contracts, and continue on, just like any number of other companies are doing.
February 18, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Too bad the car companies can’t take the bail out and bail outta the UAW. Guess that’s a huge “string” attached to this money…….more like a rope that’s hanging them.
My husband is a retired teacher, the union is not too popular with him. Here in CA, our school system is ranked 48 out of 50. Tenure needs to go. But to be fair, the “no child left behind” absolutely destroyed what was left of our schools. The illegals are a huge drain on our resources and districts as well.
February 18, 2009 at 6:27 pm
I agree Jana, It is hard to be objective being from here.. It is too scary. The union is ridiculous, and they feel they are entitled. I don’t care if they claim Bankruptcy, I do believe it is the best option for the car companies. It is the other non union companies associated with, or do work for the car companies that I care about. I think the state of MI has made a huge mistake in having the car companies as our sole business product…
February 18, 2009 at 6:51 pm
ok… after reading 47 posts, all I can say is Im ALL for GM and Chrysler filling C 11. (have been WAY before this all happened)! Unions are killing these companies! In fact, ANY company in the US that is strapped with a labor union ought to file for C. 11 protection, reorganize, retool…. and the main thing…. REHIRE AMERICAN workers at an affordable margin for everyone and not have to leave the shores of this GREAT COUNTRY!
Ohh, by the way, to the folks that have said prior that some of GM’s products wernt “up to speed?” In the last 6 years, I have owned 3 Chevy pick ups, and 1 GMC pick ups, all 4 wheel drive, with a combined milage of something close to 1 Million miles on’em. These miles are over some of the roughest f**k*n oil and gas least roads in North America and about the only thing I can think that has gone wrong is a bad tail lamp bulb!!! SO>>>> dont tell me that AMERICANS cant build GREAT cars and trucks! I know, first hand, that we can and we DO! Just get the Unions and the friggin government out of the way and stand back….. !
February 18, 2009 at 6:52 pm
But, Sharon, that’s my point. If they continue doing business, and restructure at the *same time*, there should be minimal effect on the other industries.
Also, your point about government interference is true. The ridiculous restrictions inflicted by the government is a huge drain on productivity.
Unfortunately, if they take even a dime in bailout money, the government will be even MORE involved in the operations of the companies.
February 18, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Swell528 Says:
February 18, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Everybody seems to be in agreement that the unions crashed the car companies. Now lets agree that the unions have had the very same effect on our schools. Our schools are bankrupt in every sense of the word. Time for the teachers to get slammed for collectively bargaining for a decent standard of living. Shame, Shame, Shame on teachers!!! Maybe we could bring in some foreign run schools, propped up by foreign governments, to compete with these lazy overpaid teachers. Now that would teach them! Afterall, it’s not like they walk an assembly line for a living.
_______________
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or sarcastic, but I’ll assume you’re serious and I think that’s a great idea. They could hardly do *worse* than the leftist indoctrination passing for education that’s been foisted off on us and our kids for the last 40 years or so.
I have an even better idea: Don’t let anyone become a teacher at any level until they’ve reached the age of 35 (40 would be even better). This would mean that they would have to spend 10 years or more out in the “real world,” feeding and housing themselves by producing a product or service of some sort in the competitive marketplace.
The vast majority of our teachers have never spent a day of their lives outside of the “education” system, as either a student or a teacher. And they have been trained by people who likewise have never been outside of the system, either, and so on, back for five or six generations of professional inbreeding. No wonder almost no one in the entire system has the slightest idea of how the real world actually works!
February 18, 2009 at 7:06 pm
That teacher’s union sounds like a whole ‘nother thread, but I will say this.
Many Republicans have tried to get a voucher system in place so that people can actually choose where they send their kids to school.
Liberals have fought it tooth and nail, even though in the few places that it’s been tried, it’s been wildly successful.
It forces schools to compete, which means teachers would have to actually teach. The union is against that, of course.
So, as a result, there’s no school choice, no accountability for teachers who suck, and (worst of all) no reward for the teachers who *don’t* suck. The ones who actually care.
February 18, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Julianne,
I am amazed how much we think a like, but then again I am not. I think we Westerners have to learn to defend ourselves. It amazes me when I hear Northeastern liberals tell Western women we are second class citizens, when in fact I believe the opposite is true.
February 18, 2009 at 11:59 pm
I’ll take a shot at the top question without going into a lot of the off topic discussion, “what would happen if GM were to go bankrupt?”
They would be able to negotiate out of union contracts and regain a certain amount of autonomy in their field. They’d also be able to cut other contractual obligations that are bleeding them dry. Since they wouldn’t have as much overhead to pay for (once they got through bankruptcy and paid their debts) you’d probably see a drop in the sticker price. You’d also probably see an increase in the amount of higher quality materials used in vehicle contstruction (GM is known in Detroit for using the cheapest materials) over the course of a few model year re-designs. Of course, this may not be the case, as I’m not affiliated with the auto industry.
Potentially lower prices, higher quality and more competitive product? I’d say chapter 11 might be good for the economy.
Even if they completely failed, that might not be bad. Politicians couch the argument in apocalyptic language, but consider the history of Digital Equipment Corporation. They foundered for a long time before going under. As they were dying, they sold off sections of the company that weren’t their core business or weren’t being run profitably. These portions were either purchased by other companies or became independent entities. There were job losses, but not APOCALYPTIC losses. Since those facilities were valuable to the purchaser and needed to be run, who better to do it than the previous employees?
Logos changed, some redundant job positions were trimmed, but eventually things moved on.
The fact is that GM’s auto plants are valuable in of themselves, especially since they’re already established. Chances are good whomever purchased them would be using them with previous employees just like before. The only difference is that the purchaser could probably not renew union contracts. In the end you’d probably see some new car companies and expansion of others into Detroit.
You find a beautiful deal on a car with bird crap on the window, you clean the window, you don’t firebomb the car.
Maybe they’ll sell off the rights to some retired subsidiary names. I’d love to see a 2010 Plymouth on the road.
February 19, 2009 at 2:34 am
Studebaker? Plymouth? Edsel? Aero-Car? Ajax? Kaiser Motors? International Motors? DeWitt Motors, Hudson? Graham Paige? ……get the picture????
Wikipedia will give you a list of over 599 now defunct American cars…..do you miss them? Do you wonder where the people went who made them??? Did we have a “Disaster?”……
NO……..this is a union bailout…a ripoff of the first degree…
I own a KIA, because it’s a better car than the Americans make…and now their made here in the USA……
Don’t be taken by the B.S. coming from D.C.
The “Disaster” is in the Oval office !!
February 19, 2009 at 3:19 am
“The “Disaster” is in the Oval office”
Ahhh, truer words were never spake.
How in the hell did the politics of “hope” so quickly turn into the politics of doom and gloom?
For the guy who was saying how awesome Chevys are… The thing about American made cars is that they don’t suck, it’s that they cost more than other comparable cars. Spouse drives a Monte Carlo and I drive a Jeep Liberty. We love both of them. But, if we had not bought them from CarMax after they had been “gently used”, we wouldn’t have been able to afford them.
If the government gives GM and Chrysler taxpayer money, I will never buy another one of their cars again.
I have owned Nissans and Isuzus, and they were both awesome. There is no actual reason to buy American if it will cost me twice (once at the dealership and then again during the bailout….)
February 19, 2009 at 10:18 am
Our local newspaper has a very interesting article about GM’s Saturn line. It states that there has been a lack of attention by GM to the brand since 1998; more concentration by GM on big-profit products like SUV. Many Saturn dealers are trying to figure a way to acquire the brand from GM and keep it going themselves, maybe bringing in overseas investors. Local econ professor, supposed expert, says it could be a very viable solution. I think that is another indication that Chapter 11 could actually be a healthy thing for GM.
February 19, 2009 at 10:21 am
If they went bankrupt, they could rid themselves of the Union, or maybe move to a right-to-work State.
I hate to see our long time businesses go out. Business that were started many years ago, by men that loved this country and transformed her.
If in position to purchase a new car, I certainly would not buy one of these tin can types, but I would probably buy from Ford, since GM gave $1 Billion of the bailout money to their plant in Brazil.
I hope all car manufacturers do not go on the road to the small vehicle, forced upon them by the government, as this will only put out another business. The RV manufacturers…then the RV parks….as far as I know, the RV industry is the only industry here, that has not outsourced jobs.
February 19, 2009 at 10:46 am
When companies are no longer relevant they die. That is exactly what should happen to the auto industries. It’s not working so let them die and I would think that new auto industries would rise from those ashes. I feel this “save everyone” attitude from Obama feeds his narcissistic tendencies and helps ensure future votes for the democratic party. It does nothing but sicken me.
February 19, 2009 at 11:21 am
Let them fall. That’s how the economy is supposed to work. If there is a demand for the product they are making, (automobiles made in USA), then someone else will start a new company and start making automobiles that someone will buy or else they will fall and then someone else will start a company….until someone builds something people will buy or people realize they do not want to buy USA made cars. Then the auto workers will have to retrain and/or find a new job, which is what I and most people have to do. This is how the economy is supposed to work. So, you go through some hard times, then you get a new job, then you work, then you lose your job, then you find a new job…there is no such thing as job security and there hasn’t been since the 50’s so grow up and deal with life like a mature adult.
February 19, 2009 at 11:21 am
Uncle nanny government and the unions need to get out of the way and let GM manufacture cars that people want to buy.
Sadly, since the democrats are in power, and the unions control the democrat party – no way this will happen.
So, I fully expect Obama to say “yes” to the GM/Crystler request for MORE bailout money.
Rev up the printing presses – and add to our debt. and still, GM and Chrystler will fail.
February 19, 2009 at 11:43 am
Katlynnelore:
I’m awed by what you said, but in the interest of full disclosure: Believe it or not, I wasn’t born in the West, but I got here as fast as I could. I’m a born and bred Jersey girl, you know, from the toilet bowl of the nation and in the shadow of NYC, where folks think of us as second-class citizens (even though most NY’ers aren’t even from the area, and the people who made NYC are mainly from JERSEY!).
Most Jersey women are NOTHING like women from the rest of the Northeast. We think they’re stuck up, pretentious high-heel-wearing wimps.
February 19, 2009 at 11:44 am
Kathlynnelore: forgot to mention that I (Julianne) changed my screen name. Feel free to call me Garlic.
June 15, 2009 at 9:36 am
Did Gm deserve the bailout? You Ask me I would say NO.. why? When Honda and Toyota were out inventing new cars, GM was busy boasting about its pride and Showing off its hungry hungry Daughter the Hummer